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In response to a Catholic who appeals to several passages in John chapter 6 and 11 and Job 14, and Revelation 20:4-5 to deny a Pre-tribulation Rapture. But rather than Scripture, he relies primarily on the theory that the Pre-tribulation Rapture is a teaching invented fairly recently by man, and that it contradicts Catholic Church "tradition," which rejects "sola-scriptura" [the final authority of the Bible
(Response to a Catholic who appeals to several passages in John chapter 6 and 11 and Job 14, and Revelation 20:4-5 to deny a Pre-tribulation Rapture. But rather than Scripture, he relies primarily on the theory that the Pre-tribulation Rapture is a teaching invented fairly recently by man, and that it contradicts Catholic Church "tradition," which rejects "sola-scriptura" [the final authority of the Bible].)
It is good to hear from you again! I remember you writing us before. I’m glad you are tuning into Prophecy Watch and keeping in contact.
You mention with a bit of derision the term “sola-scriptura.” Therein lies the problem with understanding the Bible. You must first believe it. God didn’t say,
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to [church tradition], it is because they have no dawn. (Isaiah 8:20)
Nor did God say,
All [church tradition] is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (2 Timothy 3:16)
Neither did He say,
Thy [church tradition] have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. (Psalm 119:11)
I must ask you three questions:
1. Are you watching for the return of Jesus Christ? If not, then you are in disobedience to His command, for He said “And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.” (Mark 13:37) If you are saying that Jesus cannot return until after the two witnesses come, after the Antichrist, after the Abomination of Desolation, after the tribulation, after the onset of Armageddon, etc., then you are not watching for Christ, and you are disobeying His command. But if you are watching for Jesus to come because you agree with Him that "the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will” (Matthew 24:44), then you agree with Him that He could come at any moment, and you agree with the possibility of an imminent, pre-tribulation rapture.
2. Do you believe that Jesus cannot return until after the two witnesses come, after the Antichrist, after the Abomination of Desolation, after the tribulation, after the onset of Armageddon, etc.? Are you saying that Jesus cannot come before these events? Then you are saying that “My master is not coming for a long time.' (Matthew 24:48) Jesus said it was the evil servant who held this view. Are you NOT expecting Jesus to come until AFTER all of those tribulation events? If so, then “the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know...” (Matthew 24:50). But, on the other hand, if you are alert and ready for Jesus to come at any moment, then you are blessed and classed with “the faithful and sensible slave ...” (Matthew 24:45). You also will believe that Jesus could come at any moment, even before the events of the tribulation!
3. Are you saying that you DO know “when the master of the house is coming...” and that you DO know that He will not come until after “... the evening [tribulation event #1], at midnight [tribulation event #2], at cockcrowing [tribulation event #3], or in the morning [tribulation event #4], ... (Mark 13:35) ? If so then you have disregarded the command of Jesus to “to stay on the alert...lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.” (Mark 13:34, 36) If you are not saying that, and you actually believe that Jesus could come before any of these events occur, then you allow for the possibility that you had better “stay on the alert” as Jesus instructs us to, because He could come at any time, as He says He could...and the rapture could be a pre-tribulation event!
Of course, you may disregard all of this if “sola-scriptura” is not taught in the Bible. But, sir, I don’t think that you want to be in the position of any of the scenarios above.
You do mention some scriptures that seem to be convenient. But none of them teach what you imply, for the Bible cannot contradict itself. The Bible cannot teach in one place that we must be watching for Jesus to return at any moment, and then in another place teach that He cannot return until after a series of tribulation events at a specified time called “the last day.” And it does not teach this.
1. The passages you point to in which Jesus says “I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:39, 40, et al) describe a period of time that climaxes our current age—a series of culminating events. We know this because the same time-term “last day” is used in John 12:48 where it speaks of the judgment of the wicked—a judgment which doesn’t occur until a thousand years after the return of Jesus. The judgment of the wicked occurs at the Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15.
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. (John 12:48)
Does this term “last day,” then, pinpoint only one instant when the resurrection Jesus promises to believers must occur? Obviously not.
Based on the Biblical use of “last day,” then, there is certainly room in “the last day” for a series of resurrections within a ‘category of resurrection’ called “the first resurrection.” (Revelation 20:4-5) And the Bible gives ample testimony that this “first resurrection” in fact is a ‘category,’ or a ‘class’ of resurrection (for the righteous only) that includes multiple events separated by time. Strictly numerically speaking, as you evidently misuse the term “first resurrection,” Jesus was the first resurrection. Following this misunderstanding, numerically speaking, the second would be those saints who were resurrected immediately after Christ’s resurrection 2000 years ago. (Matthew 27:52-53) The third resurrection, perhaps, will be the two witnesses who are raised from the dead before Jesus comes again. (Revelation 11:7-12) The absurdity of this line of illogic leads us to the fact that the “first resurrection” found in Revelation 20:4-5 will actually be the “fourth resurrection”! And the “second” one found in Revelation 20:12 must, strictly counting, be the fifth...ad infinitum... But the term “first” in this context refers to categories of resurrections. There is a first kind (righteous only, John 5:29a “a resurrection of life”) and there is a second kind (John 5;29b, “a resurrection of judgment”). There is certainly room for another pre-tribulation resurrection among this series of resurrections within the category called “the first resurrection.” Perhaps the pre-trib rapture-resurrection simply “previously was not made known.” This phrase, “previously was not made known.” is the meaning of the Biblical term “mystery”—something previously unrevealed by God, or “previously not made known.” That is the very term Paul applies to the Christian rapture-resurrection: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... (1 Corinthians 15:51)
Therefore, the Christian rapture-resurrection was ’new news” ! That’s why “Martha said to Jesus, "I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." (John 11:24) The “mystery” of the Christian rapture-resurrection was not made known until Paul’s letters. Martha was referring to the Old Testament truths she knew—that the “category of first resurrection” as referring to a general resurrection of all of the righteous at the “end time,” or the “last day,” and as taught in Daniel 12:13 and affirmed by Jesus, would happen. She did not yet know about even the resurrection of Jesus Himself, nor the raising of Lazarus, nor the other series of resurrections involved in the “first resurrection.” None of this had yet happened, nor had it yet been revealed because it was still a “mystery,” for the Holy Spirit had not yet come to “guide you unto ALL the truth.” (John 16:13)
2. In the Job 14:12 passage, Job is expressing his deep despair. He is not expressing a doctrinal truth when he says “So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens be no more, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep” any more than Solomon is expressing a doctrinal truth in Ecclesiastes 9:3 when he laments that “there is one fate for all men.” Both are mourning the fate of finite man left alone without God.
The Job passage you cite is clear in this regard because Job is actually saying in his deep suffering that a tree has more hope that he does (v. 7-12) because it will revive and live again, but a man WILL NOT. In Job’s depression, the chances of him rising again are as slim as the heavens disappearing. He has no chance, because the heavens will never disappear (Psalm 148:1-6) He then comes around from despair to hope in verses 14-15 where he allows for the possibility of a resurrection, and finally admits to the doctrinal certainty of a resurrection in 19:25-26.
Again, it is good to hear from you. I hope this has been helpful. It is with all sincerity that I implore you to “stay on the alert...you DO NOT KNOW when the master of the house is coming...lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. And what I say to you, I say to ALL, ‘Be on the alert.’ “ (Mark 13:34-37)
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Chris Chambers Written by 'Guest' on 2006-05-05 17:41:24 We look eagerly to the “Rapture,” a gathering of saints! It sounds wonderful. But have we truly looked to the scripture to see if we meet the requirements for that glorious gathering? Matthew 7: 21 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. We say we have faith, when we lack the scriptural understanding to truly know what we should be faithful too! We’re told to turn away from our sins in repentance! But to what do we turn to, when all that we’ve been given has been cut away and replaced with something more convenient. As if we have that authority! Matthew 15:7 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. So why have we taken it upon ourselves to change the word of God? BECAUSE IT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS. I don’t think so! For Paul was attributing that statement to the traditions of man, that those things which Yeshua (Jesus) and his apostles openly remarked upon in (Mark 7:1-16, Mat 23:4, Col 2:8, 2Thes 3:6, 1Peter 1:18-20), should never again stand in the way of our true covenantal practices and intent given us by God. So should we allow the law (Torah), Gods plan for mans redemption, to fall by the waste side now that Christ has come? Not at all! For the Torah and Yeshua are one and his manifestation is the partial fulfillment of Gods plan, being the word made flesh. And in him now! We shall be faithful, as he was faithful to his Fathers word. Matthew 5: 18-19 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. So as we come full circle, and being to look to the scriptures and search out the prerequisites to Christ’s coming. The “rapture being one, we will see that all has yet to be fulfilled. But there is still hope! For Our Father who Art In Heaven Has Not Forgotten His First Love (Israel), Nor Will He Forget You If You Choose To Come Back To Him! Zechariah 8: 23 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
| No one Written by 'Guest' on 2006-04-23 09:09:02 Listening to you explain pre trib is like listening to a Chatholic explain Mary worship.I know because i used to be a mary worshiper.When Christ opened my eyes through his word i had to look at my other beliefes.One was pre trib.Why did i beleave it?Because some one like you Preached it to me.I put it to th WORD and found it just wasent there.All the scriptures you use to prove your point are taken out of context, just like a catholic dose to prove mary worship.You quote Paul(1Cor15:51)but you cant add 15:52 cause it dosent fit. He is talking about the LAST DAY at the LAST TRUMPET.In all of Jesus's taechings he never tells of a pre trib rapture.He tells us that we will be delivered up to tribulation and killed for his name sake.I beleave what you teach is dangeres and will help cause the FALLING AWAY.But many have itchy ears and sounds real good not to have to go through it.Good luck with that. Paul | |